How to Fuel Through Every Phase of Your Training Cycle with Professional Runner & Sports Dietitian, Maddie Alm, RD

Whether you’re training for your first 5K or gearing up for a fall marathon, your nutrition needs shouldn’t stay the same throughout your training cycle. In this episode, I’m joined by sports dietitian and former professional runner Maddie Alm to break down exactly how fueling should evolve from base training to peak mileage, taper week and race day.

We cover:

•  How to adjust your nutrition as mileage increases 
•  Signs you may not be eating enough during training 
•  Protein myths for endurance athletes 
•  During-run fueling strategies and carb recommendations 
•  What to eat during taper week and before race day 
•  How to handle low appetite, GI issues and race nerves 
•  The truth about desserts, supplements and carb loading 

Plus, Maddie shares how she fueled the New York City Marathon, her favorite race-day foods and practical tips runners can start using immediately.

Listen to Maddie's previous episode to hear her story about going from walk-on cross-country to professional runner. 

Apply to work with Natalie for 1-on-1 nutrition coaching! 

Have questions or want to request a show topic? DM us @greenletes

Check out Natalie's book 📕: Planted Performance

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Hi everyone, welcome to the Green Leeds Podcast. I'm your host, Natalie Rizzo, and I'm excited. This is the first time actually I've ever had a repeat guest. Ooh. And it's one of, yeah, it's one of the best episodes that I did a while back, but it was a few years ago. So I have Maddie Om here. She's a dietitian, but she also was, you're a professional runner, right? I was, yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Retired.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Yeah. Yeah, retired now, but sports dietitian, professional runner. So she knows all everything, basically. So Maddie, thanks for being here. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

I'm excited to be back.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you. I wanted to get into a topic. I had this topic in mind and I thought you were a good person to talk about it. Basically, how your fueling should change through a training cycle. Because I'm kind of looking at this like if you were in college, this is like a 200 or a 300 level class. You know, we know kind of the basics now of fueling, but if you kind of know the basics and you're gearing up for something, like fueling's not the same all the time. It's it changes based on what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it depends on what you're training for as well. So if I'm working with a student athlete, high school or collegiate athlete, off season, I say that like in air quotes, is so short. You know, they're always pretty much always in season. You go from cross country to indoor track to outdoor track. Maybe you get two weeks off in between some of the seasons, depending on your program, sometimes less. So it's a very kind of year-round sport. And so for those athletes, you know, how you're fueling in season versus out of season, I would say it's not that it doesn't change, but it's gonna look a lot more similar because you're almost always in season. Um, you know, as your training ramps up, typically during like the base training phase where you're more focused on mileage, we're gonna really need to be focusing on getting enough carbs, fueling well before, potentially during and after runs, and really just kind of nailing down those day-to-day basics. Whereas when we're competing, it's a little bit more about recovery and preparing for that competition. If we're traveling, fueling with that travel. So it kind of depends on where that athlete is. Versus if I'm working with somebody who is not a student athlete, maybe they're training for their first marathon or they're training for a big race coming up. That's where, you know, again, as mileage increases, we're gonna really want to start to focus more on carbohydrates, typically eating more consistently through the throughout the day, making sure we're fueling before and after training, of course, and then working in some during training fuel as well. So typically, as training progresses, so does fueling is kind of the short way to say that.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Yeah, and I have some specific questions that I will get into. But before I do, remind us of your background. I said you were a professional runner, but what was the distance? Can you just kind of like get us up to speed on your background in the running community?

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Absolutely. Yeah. So I am from Colorado, grew up in Colorado. I ran in high school kind of later to the sport. I started as a junior. I was a soccer player prior to that. Wasn't really a standout runner in high school, didn't really know that I wanted to run in college. So I didn't run my freshman year. I ended up missing the sport a lot. And so I walked on to the University of Colorado cross-country team. So essentially just had to try out for that team as a sophomore. And I made the team, started out as the slowest athlete on the team by far, like by far the slowest, kind of running by myself most of the time, but kind of worked my way up over the course of four years. So I ended up doing five years total in college, but four of those were running. Um, worked my way up to becoming an all-American in the 1500s. Um, qualified for nationals, made the final, which was beyond anything I had ever expected. And then my coach was like, Have you ever thought about running after college? And I hadn't. I didn't really even know that was a thing. I'd already decided I was gonna go to grad school for nutrition, but I was like, sure, I'll give it a shot. So I kind of kept training. And over the course of, you know, I would say it was about eight years post-collegiate. I went from kind of like, you know, just training a little bit to running at a higher level to professional running, qualified for the Olympic trials in 2021 in the 5K, made the final there, primarily focused on 5K, and then a little bit like 10K, and even ran a half marathon towards the end of my career. So lots of different distances, lots of different pieces of my journey to running. Um, yeah, ultimately ran for a really long time and then quote unquote retired from elite running in 2024 and have more just been running for fun ever since. Although I did run the New York Marathon last fall. So I've been doing a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

I didn't know that. I didn't know you were running a New York City marathon. Yes. It's an amazing race, right? Like it was so I'm assuming it was fun. Everyone I've talked to someone says it's fun.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

It was so much fun. Yeah. I I did as a charity runner. Um, and it was just an incredible experience. I've never wanted to run a marathon, but I was like, if I did, it has to be New York. So it worked out really well. I had a blast.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Yeah. I ran it 10 years ago and I was a dietitian at the time, but I still fueled terribly. I hit the wall at mile 20 and like had had all the things. It was my first marathon, and I just yeah, I was unprepared. But it still was so fun. Like I still look back on it and think it was probably the best race I've ever ran and um hoping to run it again at some point. But yes, anyway, that's it's it's a great one. Um it is okay. So thanks for getting us up to speed. And I'll put the the link to our old episode in the show notes if anyone wants to go back and listen to that one, because that was a good one and we got more into all of this back then. But yeah, let's let's talk about basically when you're training. So you kind of already touched on this, but if you're zooming out, how should nutrition evolve across a training cycle? Basically from the start, let's talk about kind of more so the people who, yeah, like if you're a collegiate runner or you're, you know, kind of doing this all year round, it may not change that much. But let's talk about someone like me or the clients that I have who, for instance, say want to run the New York City Marathon, and maybe right now they're just kind of running steadily, but in July it's gonna ramp up their training. What would you suggest in terms of fueling from the way that the training plan evolves? Because I think that this is actually a huge deficit within the training and like even the apps that are out there, they don't talk about how nutrition should evolve with the training, which is probably a hole in the market that one of us should fill and create an app that does that. But yeah, so that's a long-winded question of asking how should the nutrition evolve with the training?

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Yeah, totally. I think what I typically see for runners across the board, no matter where they are in their training, we're not eating enough carbs. That's kind of the first place that I usually start with runners. And typically what I see with runners is they kind of are starting out, they're just running consistently, you know, not necessarily training for anything. And then as they get something on their calendar, that's when the training structure changes. So typically we see more volume, more intensity, more frequent running, less days off. And as that progresses, of course, our fueling needs increase. So where a lot of runners find themselves in trouble is that they're not fueling properly before that change in training happens. So when we do increase our training, even if we're increasing our fueling, we're typically increasing it from a baseline of underfueling. So, what I typically really encourage athletes to do is before you even get into a training block, you know, potentially meeting with a dietitian to look at your day-to-day fueling because it's so much easier to make changes to your fueling when you're not training as hard. And then when training does ramp up, it's way easier to make those subtle adjustments instead of feeling like you're reinventing the wheel from everything from nutrition to training itself. So it can be overwhelming for sure, but just starting small, usually making sure am I eating three full meals a day? Am I going really long stretches without fueling? How can I fill in those gaps a little bit? Am I balancing my plates? Am I getting carbs and color and protein? And those are kind of the things you can start with before training even ramps up. And then as training does increase, obviously the focus on portion sizes, on when we're eating, what we're eating starts to evolve a little bit more. And I have athletes really take a look at how am I doing with my carbs at my three meals per day? You know, am I getting the right portion of carbs to support the training that I'm doing? A lot of times runners will notice they have a suppressed appetite when training ramps up. So how can we navigate that? If we're not feeling hungry, but we have higher needs, how do we do? So those are some of the things that typically arise within the first portion of that training, which I call base training. We called it, you know, in in college and as a pro, we called it like training to train. You're training your body to prepare for workouts and higher intensity training. Um, and I would say that's also the same with nutrition. You're training your yourself to learn how to fuel to support that type of volume. And then as intensity increases, maybe we're adding in longer, long runs. That's when we start looking more at the fueling around the training. So making sure we're fueling typically during, especially if we're in the middle of a marathon build, practicing for race day, you know, figuring out what works well for pre-race, pre-run fuel, during run fuel, hydration, all those kinds of things. So it kind of gets more advanced, I would say, as the training progresses, we go from more of the basics to more of the nitty-gritty of what can I do to maximize my recovery post-workout or fit things in here and there. And I would say that's sort of how I progress with athletes.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Yeah. So, and this can apply to basically kind of any distance, really. Like I'm using the marathon because generally those are more like 16-week training plans, and you have the four-week build and then the four-week, like you kind of just go off from there, then you have like the peak, and then you have the taper, right? Like that's essentially I haven't run a full marathon in a while, so I don't really but I but I know that that's a generally how it is. But with a half marathon, maybe it's a 10-week plan, or it could even be like you're not a runner and you want to build to a 5K and you're still kind of following this plan. So I think that like build to build is a is a good strategy for figuring out how do you even get the fueling on the right like rhythm for you. And with that, do you talk in numbers? Because I think within the running community, we do do a lot of like you need 30 to 60 grams of carbs, you need X amount of I mean, sometimes you look at how many calories you're burning and making sure that you're taking in those calories, you need this amount of sodium. Do you kind of do that with the people you're working with, like talk in these numbers?

SPEAKER_00 10:30

It depends on what we're talking about. If we're talking about daily intake, typically, no. I don't have runners track things like calories. I find that it can be a slippery slope, especially because there are a lot of runners with a history of eating disorders or disordered eating. And talking about numbers can be really triggering. It can be just really overwhelming as well. And most of us don't have time to track food to the extent that we would really get a good concept of the numbers that we're consuming. So it's not something that I'll talk about in terms of day-to-day fueling. A couple of things I will talk about with numbers. Sometimes talking about grams of carbs per meal can be helpful for people because most of the time, like I said, runners are under-eating carbs. And so getting them to understand here's what this should actually look like at a meal, here's what you're eating now, here's how much we need, that can really help people get more of a grasp on wow, I really need to add another portion of rice to my plate, or I really do need that second piece of toast. And it can help them mentally sort of buy into it a bit more when they really understand from a science perspective how high their needs are. I think another one I'll sometimes talk about is protein because protein is so popular right now. Almost all the runners I'm working with are way overdoing it on protein. You know, with the exception of, like we talked about plant-based athletes, there certainly are some athletes who do need to increase their protein. I'm not saying everyone is is guilty of overshooting it, but a lot of people are right now. So also understanding herbs of protein per day over your protein needs, that's taking away from your ability to eat other things like carbohydrates that are going to give us more proper fuel. So, in a day-to-day perspective, that's those are kind of the only situations I do use numbers. The other time I do use numbers is during run fueling. So I like to work within a framework of grams of carbs per hour and talking about the types of fuel that we're using. So if we're using gels or chews or drink mixes, how are we combining those things to get to a goal, number of grams of carbs per hour? And then same thing, sodium per hour, specifically during more like half marathon marathon training, making sure that we're on top of it with hydration. But those are kind of the only situations I use numbers. Otherwise, I prefer to use more of a visual approach, kind of a mental checklist. So do we have these three things, these four things in our meals? Do we have these two things in our snacks? Are we getting, you know, this amount of carbs pre-run? Are we getting a carbon protein post-run? Just kind of having more of that like framework to go with, I think is a little more sustainable for athletes than hyper focusing on numbers.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Yeah, no, that makes sense. I think it is. I've done some tracking of like nutrients because I am plant-based sometimes to see am I getting enough protein and things like that. And it is like sometimes you're like, oh my God, am I literally measuring out a cup of beans right now? This is exactly. But you are, so it can be a lot to do that. And and I think it's not for everyone. I do think there are some people who are super analytical, and I've worked with people who had a chart of everything they ate, and they like to do that. And I think that's fine as long as it's not obsessive and you know, bordering on disordered eatings. But I think it depends on the person. If you're not tracking and you're not focusing on numbers, and we we talk about this all the time, the biggest mistake we're kind of seeing a lot of times is underfueling. What are some signs and symptoms that that is happening? That you are maybe underfueling and you're not getting in what you need as your training ramps up.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Yeah, that's something that can definitely vary from athlete to athlete. And it's really helpful to know, you know, things like blood work, what your blood work looks like when you feel good and you're performing well. So you have that more objective measure as well to kind of say, my ferritin has dropped by 30 points over the last three months. That's a red flag. Even if you don't feel any different yet, we can sometimes catch some underfueling from some of those biomarkers, you know, like from blood work. But generally speaking, it also depends on the severity of the underfueling. Low energy availability, just the discrepancy between how much energy you need and how much you're putting in, can definitely show up in different ways from different people and affect different systems. And the longer that we're in a state of low energy availability, the more extreme it can get. And that can progress into reds or relative energy deficiency in sports. So typically, what athletes will see early on, I would say a lot of athletes I work with, their early symptoms are things like they're really fatigued all day. They're having a hard time focusing in school or at work, they're maybe falling asleep at their desk or in class, they're just kind of noticing overall low energy and they're like, that's marathon training for you. I'm tired all the time. But it shouldn't be that way. Like you should still be able to function and live your life outside of training. So day-to-day fatigue tends to be an early one. Trouble sleeping is one a lot of people don't realize. If you're suddenly noticing that you used to sleep really well, now you're having a hard time falling asleep or staying asleep, that can be a red flag that we've got some underfueling happening. Noticing more stress and anxiety can be another one. Our cortisol levels, our stress hormone levels increase with underfueling. So if you're feeling more anxious, kind of more ramped up, that can also be a signal that maybe we need a little more fuel. More GI issues can happen as well, especially during runs, which is so hard for athletes to wrap their mind around because they're like, well, I should not eat before my run, and then my stomach will feel better. But that actually can make it worse, uh, can worsen digestion. So sometimes it's stomach issues. And then I would say the other one people tend to notice is mood. They're noticing more mood swings throughout the day. They become more irritable, they're more emotional than they normally are. Just, you know, things that you don't attribute to fueling. But if you're just noticing any changes in how you feel and how you function on a daily basis, it's always worth looking into your fueling, especially if it's getting worse as training volume is increasing.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Yeah, the ferritin is actually really interesting because I talk a lot about iron and ferritin and all of that because I work in the plant-based space and it's so common for athletes, for female athletes to be low in iron, but especially plant-based ones, and it's something I've struggled with, and and I take supplements and I've like figured out what works for me. But I didn't realize within, I guess, the people who eat a lot of animal foods that it happens as drastically, I guess, as it does for me. And honestly, when you're low in iron, like I've woken up in the middle, I had this when I was pregnant because it's very hard to keep your iron levels up what while pregnant. I would wake up in the middle of the night with Restless Leg syndrome. It was, it's ugh, it's the worst. But do you like with athletes that you work with when it comes to ferritin, how often should they get a blood work done and and see those levels?

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Yeah. So honestly, most of the athletes I work with, I would say two-thirds have low ferritin when they get their blood work done, regardless of whether they're plant-based or not. And that's just, again, I think a reflection of where a lot of people are with their fueling. But I really encourage athletes to get blood work done at least before every training block starts. So let's say you're running a fall marathon, you're starting your block in July, getting blood work done at the end of June, just so you have that baseline. And that way, if as training goes on, you're like, man, I'm feeling worse and worse and worse, you can always retest and, you know, maybe still have four to eight weeks to resolve it before the race itself. Or if your ferritin is borderline low before you even start training, then you know, okay, I need to start doing something to bring that up so it doesn't impact my training cycle. Most people will get annual blood work done with their doctor, but a lot of runners need it more consistently than that. So at least, you know, at least once a year. I really have athletes mostly do it before every build starts. So for some athletes, that can be as many as three to four blood tests per year to check in on that. And if you are taking any supplements, that's another time where I really encourage people to get blood work done. I do not recommend just blindly supplementing, just saying, oh, I'm tired, so I'm gonna take iron. Um, there's a million reasons why you could be tired. It potentially low iron is one of them. But typically low iron is also caused by underfueling, which can also cause low energy. So it's not just as simple as I'm tired, I'm gonna take some iron. And we also can have overlapping symptoms between high iron and low iron. And I've actually had several athletes in the last couple of years discover they have a condition that causes high iron. And if they were to take iron, that would make all their symptoms worse. So not just blindly supplementing. Anytime we're taking supplements, getting blood work done to back it up and make sure you're still taking the appropriate dose.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Yeah, no, and I was gonna ask you about supplements later, but I'll just throw it in now. When someone is going into a training block, do you recommend that any supplements that they should just blindly start taking? I'm almost rolling my eyes as I ask the question because I know what you're gonna say.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Yeah, I think no, there's really not. Yeah. I do think one that I like to have athletes take is magnesium. That is one across the board I see a lot of athletes are low in. And just generally speaking, our diets as a whole are pretty low in magnesium. Our soil over the years has become more depleted in magnesium, and it's played such a big role in muscle function and recovery. That is one that I'll often have athletes add in. Aside from that, there is no one supplement that I'm gonna recommend to all athletes. You know, even things like vitamin D. Always getting your levels tested first because vitamin D is fat soluble. We can overdo it. Iron, we can overdo it. Pretty much anytime we're taking a supplement, we are running the risk of overdoing it, which we wouldn't be if we're getting it just from food alone. So that's yeah, that's something I would say. Athletes are quick to want to take supplements and quicker to want to take supplements than to want to change fueling. And I would say if we're doing like a decision tree of should I be taking supplements, I'm also asking, are you eating three meals a day? Are you having snacks throughout the day? Are you eating before and after runs? Are you hydrating properly? If you answer no to any of those questions, we want to start there because supplements, the way I describe it to athletes, it's like trying to put a roof on a house without walls. If we don't have those walls in place with common fueling practices, supplements don't work. They don't have the building blocks they need to function the way that marketing teams promise they will. So it's always, always good to make sure you have your basic fueling dialed in before you start turning to all the crazy magic bullet supplements that are being promoted out there.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

This is great. I love this because you're giving specific examples of things that people can use. And I want to kind of get into that more a little bit with, okay, so now we kind of started with here's the foundation, but now you're you're growing and you're going into the peak of your training. And with that, you have to increase the amount of energy you're taking in, essentially, through carbs and through more food. So, what are like examples of ways that people can do that? Are there certain meals that they should focus on? Is it just adding more to every meal? Obviously, with the underlying foundation of hopefully we're getting those three meals a day and some snacks. But then where do you build on top of that?

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Totally. Yeah, that's a big challenge for a lot of runners is getting in more fuel when maybe you're not feeling as hungry from the hard training that you're doing or long runs. You know, it's common to have a suppressed appetite afterwards, especially if we're training in the summer. You know, heat, humidity can suppress your appetite as well. So a couple of tools I recommend for athletes is liquid calories are super helpful. If you just add a glass of juice with every meal, that's gonna help get you a lot of extra carbs to support your training, but it doesn't add a lot of volume to your food. So those kinds of things tend to be really easy. Incorporating post run liquids as well, something like a carbon protein filled recovery drink, like chocolate milk, chocolate soy milk. Be really great options because you're getting both the carbs and protein that you need, and also if your stomach is bothering you or you don't feel hungry, you're giving yourself a little bit of a cushion until you have to eat a full meal. So having like a post-run recovery drink option is typically something I'll have athletes incorporate. Energy dense foods. So if we think about things like avocado, nuts and seeds, peanut butter, almond butter, you know, adding a little more olive oil to something, those are things that don't take up extra space in your stomach, but do provide extra energy to support your training. So it's kind of being savvy with what you're already doing and just adding a little bit to it at each time you're eating, instead of thinking about I need to eat this massive dinner at the end of the day where that might make you feel uncomfortable afterwards. It's just adding little things here and there throughout the day to increase your total intake. Another area is during run fueling, which will typically ramp up as your runs get longer. Maybe we're adding in some gels, maybe we're now focusing in on grams of carbs per hour, depending on what you're training for. So really thinking about that during run fuel as supporting you overall and hitting your energy needs. Yes, it's helpful for during the run itself, but even more so, it can be helpful from an energy balance standpoint.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

What about someone who, you know, wants to have more ice cream, you know, or like they, yeah, I just ran 15 miles today. I'm gonna have a brownie or have some ice cream, or that's how I'm gonna get in my extra calories.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

I am always fine with that, honestly, because a lot of runners who are trying to increase their fuel are also thinking, oh, I need to eat so much healthier now that I'm running. And they go towards the wrong things, like maybe they increase their portion of veggies or their portion of salad. And those are things that are gonna take up a lot of space in your stomach, but not contribute much in terms of energy or carbs. So incorporating some dessert every night, I'm completely fine with people doing that. You know, people are like, oh, but those are bad for you. They don't have any nutritional value. I would argue that they do have nutritional value. They're giving you much-needed carbohydrates to support your training. For having ice cream, there's, you know, calcium in there, which is important for your bones. We've got dietary fats, which support hormone health. So you can get something from all of those foods. But if we're having ice cream for dinner, that's where, okay, now we're missing out on some of those essential nutrients. So it's totally fine to have desserts as long as we are also having our meals and our snacks and getting in that balanced, nutrient-dense food and not replacing it with dessert.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Yeah, that totally makes sense. And and you touched on it before, but in terms of protein, I think protein is confusing for people, and I've talked about it before because one, the the target is always moving. Like we're telling people different amounts of protein. The range is big in terms of how much protein you should have. So, and then of course, if you're doing more activity, it's almost like you need more protein. How do you handle that conversation? Where are you telling people to fall in terms of their protein levels, especially if they're training for something?

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Yeah. So typically what I use in sports nutrition is 1.6 to two grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. And not the twice your amount of weight in pounds of protein that's going around on social media. That is typically far, far, far too high for endurance-based athletes. And it's gonna take away, like I said earlier, from your ability to eat enough carbs, which is really the most important thing for runners. So usually what we're doing is we're talking about if, you know, I would say generally speaking, a lot of runners, it's gonna be somewhere around 100 grams of protein a day, give or take. You know, sometimes it's a little less, sometimes it's a little more, but it's much less than people think it is. And if we're plant-based, of course, maybe we're gonna shoot for a little more than that just from an absorption standpoint, making sure we're getting enough and absorbing the right amount. But even in those situations, maybe it's 115, 120 grams, no, much different than the 150 a lot of athletes come to me aiming for. So it just kind of depends on the person, their size, what their training looks like, how intense their training is, what the volume is, how many days off they have, are they doing strength training, you know, other things like that. But it's usually for me when I'm working with a runner, gonna fall somewhere in that range.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Should it change based on the training, like from the bill to the peak to the taper? Should the protein change or stay steady?

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Yeah, that's a super great question. I would say usually what I'm doing is in the off season, we're trending more towards the two grams of protein per kilogram body weight. And also as we approach kind of the race itself, although taper week, a lot of times we're folding in a carb load. So that's gonna look a little different if you're someone who needs to do a carb load for a longer race. But a lot of times if we're decreasing training volume, protein goes up a little bit because we're trying to support the maintenance of muscle mass and avoid any muscle loss, and also make sure that we're really supporting recovery, which is super important, heading into a race. But in the middle of the block, typically we're focusing less on protein, more on carbs. And, you know, keeping in mind foods don't exist in a vacuum. A bagel has 10, 15 grams of protein, depending on what you're eating, um, but it also has a lot of carbs. So there's ways that we can kind of double dip with some foods to support both goals, but really making sure that we're getting that focus on carbs in the midst of the training block, not focusing too much on protein to the point that we're missing out on other things we really do need.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Yeah, I think that that is very important what you just said, because I think people would think it's the other way around, that they should have more protein as they're increasing their training because their muscles are undergoing more stress and everything. But you kind of just said the opposite. Like you're advising people to have more protein in their kind of rest period because you need more carbs during this build up to the peak mileage.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Exactly. And if you're getting enough carbs, that actually will support muscle growth and repair. Because if we're not getting enough carbs, we're more likely to break down muscle tissue. Versus if we're getting enough carbs, we're actually sparing that muscle tissue from being broken down. So we can see better results when it comes to training adaptations by focusing more on carbs in the midst of a big section of your block or higher volume instead of on protein.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Yeah. Okay, so let's also talk about the higher volume intra-run fuel. I've heard different numbers in terms of because I think this is where we kind of do get into numbers, right? Because we tell people a certain amount of grams of carb is half per hour. I've been hearing different things lately. And even I, as someone who reads the research, I'm not sure what the research is even saying. Originally I was always seeing the 30 to 60 grams per hour. Sometimes now I'm seeing up to 90 grams per hour. What do you tell people in terms of how much fuel they should have during longer endurance runs? And then also, does that change through the training cycle too?

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Yeah, for sure. This is another one. You guys are gonna hear this all the time with nutrition, but like it depends. It really does. Yeah. Because where you're starting from makes a really big difference with your ability to tolerate during run fuel. Typically, if we're if I'm working with somebody who's aiming for, you know, like a sub-three hour marathon or a more elite marathoner, our aim for grams of carbs per hour is gonna be between 60 to 90 grams. That's kind of what research consistently shows is gonna be favorable, or at which those people are running those paces is always going to favor carbohydrates for fuel. So putting more in is going to help prevent them from hitting that wall or running out of muscle glycogen or carbohydrate stores in the middle of the race and kind of bonking. Somebody who's maybe newer to those distances or a little bit slower or who hasn't really practiced with fueling before, that's when I'm using that 30 to 60 gram of carb range. Where if we're brand new to fueling, we've never done it before, the first run we do, we're probably gonna try to just get one gel at halfway, which is maybe gonna be 10 to 20 grams of carbs per hour. And then as time goes on, just like you can train your body to tolerate more mileage, you can train your gut to tolerate more fuel. And the more fuel your gut can tolerate, the better it is for race day. So working our way up to at least 30 grams of carbs per hour. If somebody's running a marathon, I try to say the minimum we'd want to be at is 40 grams per hour for anybody, no matter the effort, especially for people who are gonna be out there for longer. Getting in more fuel is gonna be really beneficial. But we also don't want to do that at the detriment of a million bathroom stops if your body's just not gonna tolerate it. So that's where it's also very important to start practicing your during run fueling early, practicing fueling often, trying different products, finding what works well for you, trying different grams of carb per hour approaches because everyone's gonna tolerate things a bit differently. Again, kind of depends on on where you are with that journey, where you've been, what your goals are, how fast you're running, what the intensity is of your pace, but it's typically gonna be somewhere between 30 to 90 grams, which is a very big range.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

It is, but it's still it's helpful for people to know. And I I another question that comes up a lot, and I'm gonna ask your personal what you used here, how do you carry all of it? That comes up all the time. And I everyone I ask has a different method. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Yes. So when I ran New York, I did 70 grams of carbs per hour. Um, and what I did was I used a gel called Never Second that has 30 grams of carbs per gel. So most traditional gels in the market have around 20, which means if you're trying to get 60 grams of carbs per hour, that's three gels per hour. And if you're running a three-hour marathon, that's nine gels. That's a lot to carry. So what was nice about these gels is it's only two gels per hour. So I'm carrying six instead of nine, which is a lot more manageable for me. And then I was also using some of the on-course hydration with carbs to help supplement. I practiced this with a hydration vest when I was running to kind of figure out how much am I actually taking in. And I found that if I took a few sips per mile, I ended up finishing about 500 milliliters of fluids per hour. And I was able to put a serving of an electrolyte drink with carbs in it in each of those bottles. So that added another 20 grams of carbs per hour for me. So I just kind of did the same thing on course. I took the Gatorade, I took a couple sips, tossed a cup, and then that combined with my gels helped me hit that 70 grams. So that was what I did. And then in terms of actually carrying it, there's a there's a company called Bandit that makes running tops that have gel slots in them. So they're they're like kind of like a bougie running company, I would say, but I did splurge and buy myself one of the tops, and it had five gel slots along the back. And then I run in longer spandex that have pockets on the side. So I could put two gels in each pocket. So I actually found that it was easier for me to carry gels than I had anticipated. Most, I feel like especially women's running clothing is not carrying fuel friendly. There's just like maybe one teeny tiny zipper pocket in the back, and that's it. So finding some gear that can carry more gels is so helpful. And I do think a lot of brands are expanding to include more storage for women's clothing in general. Men, I think, generally have more pockets in their shorts and things like that. But yeah, that was how I ended up carrying all my fuel.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Yeah. A few people have asked that question, and they always say, like, I bought something that was more expensive than I wanted it to be, but it was worth it. And then and I think runners are very much they're used to that because they'll like for me, I'll spend more money on my running sneakers than other shoes. And I'm just like, whatever, this is what it is. So exactly. I think I think it's worth kind of like indulging sometimes, but thank you for for sharing that. And I think that's also helpful for people to hear how much you fueled during this because it is different for everyone. And I always give the example of myself of it's kind of I think things can shift too. I don't think people like, although you may get something that works for you, it still sometimes could shift around. Like I I run super early in the morning at like 6 a.m. and I'm fueling it sometimes 5 15, and I'm still kind of tweaking what I'm having and it it's like how much, what it exactly it is, and sometimes I'll try new things. It doesn't always have to stay the same, but I think it's still you do it while you're training, so that race day morning you kind of did something that you trained with.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Exactly. Yeah. My motto is never try anything for the first time on race day. So really using your long runs and your training sessions to dial in what works for you, what helps you feel your best. And that way race day is kind of just another workout day.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so let's talk about taper. So now we kind of went through the build, the peak. Now we're in the taper phase. I think when people get to taper, they think I'm not gonna eat as much, or I shouldn't, I don't need to worry about that. What do you, how do you advise people to fuel during a taper?

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Yeah, I mean, I usually start with let's go over the purpose of a taper, right? The whole purpose is to absorb that training block that you just put in the last 12, 16 weeks of training, make sure your body is as recovered and fueled as possible so you can show up on the start line 100% ready to go. If we underfuel during a taper week, we take away from that goal. We reduce our body's access to the resources that are going to help us actually absorb and adapt to all that training that we did. And it's not that it's gonna cancel out the whole, you know, 12, 16 week build, but it does make a difference with how much you're able to get out of that taper. And a lot of runners have a hard time pulling back with running. So you're sort of making it um not as worth it if you're not fueling during that taper week. And a lot of athletes, like you said, think, oh, I'm not running as much, which means I shouldn't be eating as much. But your energy needs at baseline actually increase the higher your fitness is. So when you're at peak fitness, just sitting on the couch is burning more calories than it is when you first started your training block. So a lot of runners underestimate how much their baseline energy expenditure changes as they go through this training cycle. And then on top of that, a taper week is for most people not an off week. You're still running, you're still doing some type of training. And some people have active jobs, they're doing other things during the day, they're walking the dog. So energy needs really don't shift as much as you would think. And so it's very important that you stay on top of that fueling. So I usually tell people keep a similar structure, make sure you're still getting those three meals a day, eating every two to four hours, depending on your schedule, fueling before and after runs, and really just listening to your body. Some people feel hungrier during taper weeks, which is very normal. So if you feel hungry, eat something. Your body's not trying to trick you into overfueling, it's telling you that it really does need something. So make sure you're honoring that. And then part of taper weeks for some people will be a carbload. So if that's something that you're doing, keeping in mind the last few days is going to actually be higher intake of typically energy, but especially carbohydrates. And a lot of runners will panic. They're like, I'm gonna gain all this weight in my taper week. It takes an extra 3,500 calories to gain one pound, which is not happening for any runner during taper week. You're not overshooting your energy needs by 3,500 calories. And even if you were, it's something that typically will dissipate as the race goes on. So we will see a lot of increase in fluid storage as your carb stores increase, but that's gonna go away as you run the race. So there is typically no true body composition change in one taper week, but we will see an increase in hydration and energy stores, both of which can make the scale look higher, but are going to help you with performance. So just all around, avoid the scale, taper week, race week. That's not helpful data. It's better to focus on the little things that you know will work to help you feel and perform your best.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yeah, I was just gonna say that. Maybe just don't get on the scale that week. Or I get it, some people it may be like, well, my pants are a little tighter, which you talked about with the with an increase of glycogen, that can happen as well. And that's actually the purpose of a carbload. So yes, I love that you're clearing that up because I think that it's funny how people they go through a whole training block for a marathon or something so difficult, but then they find the taper to be difficult, which is really the time that you should be resting and enjoying and relaxing.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

For sure. And I think what's hard about the taper is like you have no control now over what happens. Like you've already put in the work. There's nothing left for you to do. A lot of runners have a hard time with that and they channel that nervous energy into I need to manage my food, I need to manage my weight. So also just zooming out a little bit and asking yourself, like, is this really about my food and my weight, or is this more just about the fact that I have this week where I can't do anything, I can't gain any more fitness, I can't do any workouts. I just have to accept that this is where we are and just be ready for the race. So keeping in mind nerves can play a role there too.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Actually, that's a perfect segue into my last question because I wanted to talk about race day. And this happens to me a little, not as much anymore. It's not always nerves, but sometimes it may be just having to eat too early. Basically, you're just not hungry. And so for some people, it can be nerves, could be anxiousness, stress, whatever it is. Do you have any suggestions for people race day that they they don't feel any hunger, although they know they need to fuel for that? Is there certain foods that you tell them to turn to or kind of just try as best you can? What are your suggestions there?

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yeah, that's such a great one. I struggled with this a lot in college. And for me, what helped the most was finding something that I enjoyed before a race because I found myself choking down oatmeal before every race, and I did not enjoy it. I did not look forward to it. It wasn't, it didn't taste good to me. And I already was struggling with not feeling hungry. So it was just like a chore to get down that oatmeal. And I remember I read Dina Castor's book and she talked about baking scones before long runs. And I was like, wait a minute, you can eat something you like before you run. That was like a light bulb moment for me. And ever since then, like anything that sounds good that has carbs, it could be a pastry, it could be toaster waffles, you know, pancakes. I always love bagels, especially like in New York for the marathon. Like it's just New York bagel. I could eat those all day. So, like a bagel, you know, something that sounds good before your race. Eat something you enjoy and you don't need to force feed yourself something just because you think it's what runners should be eating. Find fuel that makes you excited to eat. I think that's something that can really help with those race day nerves. Liquids also are great. So a carb rich electrolyte drink. I love scratch, that's probably one of my favorites. Gatorade's great. Not the zero sugared electrolyte drinks, I would not do those. Things that have sugar in them. This is a time and a place where sugar can really play an important role in getting you that fuel. And then I would also say the day before, if you know that you really struggle to eat the morning of the race, really focus on carbloading those couple days leading up to the race, getting in extra fuel, topping off those energy stores, maybe having a high carb snack before you go to bed so that you have a little extra energy on board. And if you do struggle that morning, it's not the end of the world. You've put in all this work leading up to the race and just doing the best you can on race morning will probably get you to the start line pretty fueled.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Yeah, I also am a huge bagel person. I have it before every race. Love bagels, but I I'm actually not a sweet person. Like I'm oh yeah, I've always been a savory person. So for me, pretzels are a huge one, but also like some sour gummy candies, things like that. So I think, you know, it's not, it's fine what you like. It doesn't, but some people love jelly beans and pop tarts, and that's like a very, very good suggestion because it does not need to be, you know, something complicated. Although I would say, like, don't, you know, have bacon that morning. Right. Like make sure focus. Make sure it's carbs. Yes, yes, exactly. I sometimes see that because I take the subways to races because I live in New York City. And I'll see people on the subway eating like a bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich on the way to a race. And I'm like, no, I want to intervene here, but I'm not going to. Yeah. That would that would wreck me before it race. Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, this is this has been so helpful. I think anyone who's, especially now, it's May. We're going into, I think people are going to start training for fall stuff. This will be very helpful for people to ri recognize how their feelings should change throughout the training cycle. I hope that's the bottom line that everyone got here. And we gave some tips on how it should change. So, but also you could work with Maddie and get individualized tips. So, Maddie, where can people find you and work with you?

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Yeah, absolutely. So, fuelingforward.com is my website. I actually have a fall marathon group nutrition program. So it's a 12-week program for anyone running a fall marathon. So if you're interested in that, check that out. I also do one on one work as well. And then have a podcast that Natalie was on a couple weeks ago. So you can also check out her episode on the Fueling Forward podcast. But yes, Fueling Forward website and then fueling underscore forward on Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Amazing. Thank you so much. Yes. Thank you for having me. This was so fun. So fun.